Question for line judges.

[lima_beans]

Originally Posted by OmniSpiker

Just because the line moved, doesn't always mean it's an actual foot fault.

Like others said, depends on the tournament.. Look at the EVP rules:

6. Foot Fault:
Any movement of the line on a serve is a fault. Movement by sand or foot included.

EVP Tour - Professional and Amateur Beach Volleyball Presented by Corona Light


and while the AVP rules dont explicitly say it, they do say

He may not perceptively move the endline forward during service"

, which sometimes might be interpreted as dont make the line move even if you dont touch it.

[OmniSpiker]

Oh definitely.

I've been called for foot fault while I was clearly more than 12 inches away from the line. Can't argue about sand moving but, clearly physically not even close to line, is very questionable about how any sand can move the line anymore than wind moving the line at that point. That was just a little 1/4 inch rope they were using. How's the R1 gonna see at that distance or was it just perceptively believed the line moved? LOL's -bad ref, bad ref...Won't see a call like that twice in the same game.

[KOACHnREF]

It's a shame that people don't put as much effort into learning to officiate as they do into learning volleyball.

There is no rule change at FIVB, USAV, NCAA, or NFHS in determining if the ball is in or out. No rule in the 12 years that I have been officiating required the official to determine if the ball was in or out by the compression of the ball. The compression of the ball has always been a myth.

Now here's the learning of officiating: Line judges who's not trained and REFEREEs who are really not trained watches the ball to determine an event. This is not the best way to watch the action and make a sound decision. The best way is to look just ahead of the ball in the trajectory. This way you'll see what happens as it happen. Have you ever watched someone refereeing a match and when the ball is passed high up in the air you see them following the ball with their head and eyes? At my level of officiating this is an official who is a step behind the action and judgement calls will be inconsistent. Instead of watching the ball, look to the player who's going to contact the ball. Watch to see the hands contact the ball and make a determination if the ball was played correctly or not. Looking at the spin or sound of the contact is amaturist to say the least.

I would like to comment on the 'Action Jackson Line Judges.' Those who like to move around like they are into the game. In my opinion they are bringing attention to themselves. The R1 & R2 isn't jumping around and doing extra movement to see the play and neither should the line judges. I know there are top collegiate officials that do. There is one who's have an article published about his line judging. As an official (line judges are officials) it is our duty to not be the focus. The players are the focus! Moving to see if the ball hits the line or not actually causes they eyes to not be focused.

Professional volleyball officials have the motto that goes something like this: The best game officiated is the game where the teams don't remember the officials. I've made bad calls like players have made bad plays, but most people remember me from my good time I have on the stand and on the floor. I smile a lot and I compliment the athletes when they make a good play. If I do make a bad call and I know it, then I work harder to not make the same mistake. Some people want the official to 'ADMIT' they made a bad call. That's why they argue with the official. To admit an error after being question encourage more questioning of calls. Now if the ruling was in how the rule applies to the game is incorrect then the official should make the make the change as applicable. They will then gain valueable respect for this action.

Lastly, a comment about an official who over rules a line judge on calls that are close. The R1 should have the respect of the crew. This mean the R1 must earn it! To over rule a close call is the same as an 'Action Jackson Line Judge.' The R1s that like to overrule want the attention that they are in charge. A good official knows that the teams playing are in charge. Officials are the ones that just determine if the play was legal and announce the result of the rally. Respect is accepting the decision of the crew on any close call and allowing them to do their assigned duty.

I encourage anyone who's interested in officating to contact their local USAV or PAVO board. We need officials who are players and not people who are just looking for xtra paycheck. To be honest with you an official can make good pay officiating. The average official make $20 a match doing club ball and collegiate matches at the lowest level make around $75 on a single match and $35 at tournament matches. The bigger the level the more you can make! BUT YOU HAVE TO BE SERIOUS about the teams are the focus. Players understand the game and some rules do not cover the 'spirit of the game.' Players understand the spirit of the game and allow good play to go unquestioned. Officials who don't play the game lose something in the translation and tend to bring the enjoyment of the game down.

Sorry for the long reply. This is my first time on this site and this discussion hit to the heart of my profession. I hope you all understand I take officiating as serious as I take playing and coaching.

[OmniSpiker]

Hi KOACHnREF, welcome, it's good to be opinionated with a passion.

I think that the idea of the compression myth is inappropriately applied. The ball does in fact compress upon impact, unless you've got a ball that's rock hard over-inflated. When the ball touches the ground there could be an impact often about 1-2 inches in circumference. The compression myth is that sometimes people beleive that it's about 6-7 inches in circumference or they try to measure the whole circumference of the ball. That's where a lot of inexperience officials sometimes refer to the best/worst angle of view. Like you said, it's because they are following the ball with their eyes.

That's exactly the same thing that plaques the 'Action Jackson Line Judges' as they are following the ball. Often time the inexperience ones stand with their shoulders square to the net, instead of their feet 90 degrees matching the corner of the court. Often the missed call is the ball going to the opposite corner or sideline furthest away because of obstruction of view, be it a player, the R2, or the net and any net attachments itself. Rarely does a any official need to move, but some occassions, it does require taking a step or kneeling down to see it clearly. Even moving your head rather than relying solely on eye movements can improve your visual acuteness. Afterall the best visual acuteness is the field of view closest to directly infront where both eyes are at their greatest distance apart.

Like you said, the best officials are the ones you don't remember - making questionable calls. In the the case of ball in or ball out, there should be no question to it or error to the call.

[mycena]

I was line judging once when we were the 'work team' and an R1 overruled my line call. After the game he apologized for overruling my call. I said, it's not me you should apologize to, it doesn't bother me that you over-ruled my call. I made the right call. oops. that was kind of snotty. LOL. He's actually a really good ref and one of my favorites. But nobody is perfect and that in or out call didn't impact me winning or losing the game.

[KOACHnREF]

OmniSpiker,
I see that I was not clear on my response on the compression myth. I was stating that there's have never been a "OFFICIAL RULE" in any volleyball governing body rulebook that says the officials should determine if the ball is in or out by the compression of the ball at impact. Sure the ball does compress on impact, I agree. Yet it became a rule myth when people starting using this as a determining factor. This the same for using the spin of the ball to determine ball handling. Many people does not know there is a rule that states that ball handling is not to be determined by the spin of the ball. If I had a rulebook with me I'll quote the rule number.

I agree that line judges do have to move to see a play as you stated. They should be positioned over the corner of the court and use their HEAD & EYES to see line calls. I disagree that they have to get closer to the floor to see the result. Since one of our area college conferences have started hiring professional officials as line judges I've learned to be a decent line judge. Just this past fall I was honored to work the NCAA DII Championships Qtr, Semi & Finals as a line judge. I also line judge for the same conference men's volleyball and the speed of the game is much faster. At no time have I been in a position to get closer to the floor to see the ball hit. Sometime I initially believe I see one thing and my flag signal one call, but then my mind tells me I actually saw it another way and I change it.

[BHitterDPasser]

Originally Posted by OmniSpiker

When the ball touches the ground there could be an impact often about 1-2 inches in circumference. .

This is amazing small contact patch. I venture a properly inflated ball sitting under it's own official weight probably has a contact patch close to this. 2" circumference is about a 5/8" diameter (or 3/16" radius).

For Size Comparisons:


Coin......Diameter..Circumference
Quarter....0.955"......3"
Nickel.....0.835"......2.625"
Penny......0.750"......2.356"
Dime.......0.705"......2.215"

[BHitterDPasser]

Originally Posted by KOACHnREF

OmniSpiker,
I see that I was not clear on my response on the compression myth. I was stating that there's have never been a "OFFICIAL RULE" in any volleyball governing body rulebook that says the officials should determine if the ball is in or out by the compression of the ball at impact. Sure the ball does compress on impact, I agree. Yet it became a rule myth when people starting using this as a determining factor.

I don't how you see this as a "myth." As stated earlier:

I only have a 2006-2007 book, but 8.3 states:

The ball is "in" when it touches the floor of the playing court, including the boundary lines.

The ball does not maintain a round shape during play. Any time it comes into contact with anything, it deforms. If any portion of the ball, including its deformed shape, touches the line it is in. If that deformed contact patch is not on or within the bounds, it is out.

As an official, you have to determine if the ball touched the line therefore I think you are COMPELLED to determine if the contact patch touched the line or not on close calls.

[NewEnglandRT]

You know you're a toolbox when:

This is amazing small contact patch. I venture a properly inflated ball sitting under it's own official weight probably has a contact patch close to this. 2" circumference is about a 5/8" diameter (or 3/16" radius).

For Size Comparisons:


Coin......Diameter..Circumference
Quarter....0.955"......3"
Nickel.....0.835"......2.625"
Penny......0.750"......2.356"
Dime.......0.705"......2.215"

Is your response to anything in a sports thread.

[BHitterDPasser]

Originally Posted by NewEnglandRT

You know you're a toolbox when:



Is your response to anything in a sports thread.

You know you still love me.